Episode 09 - The Physical Practice of Yoga - Asana featuring Camille Moses-Allen
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Please enjoy this excerpt featuring Camille Moses-Allen on the physical practice of yoga through asana.
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IN THIS EPISODE:
In this episode Camille and I discuss the benefits of the physical practice of yoga.
Asana is the 3rd limb of yoga. It’s most often what people think of when we talk about yoga. It doesn’t mean handstand or flying pigeon or anything fancy. It means to find a comfortable seat to prepare for meditation to help calm the chatter of the mind.
Join us as we discuss the benefits of the different types of poses, the importance of breath in movement, and how to find stability and ease in practice.
seated
standing
twists
forward bends
balancing postures
inversions
side bends
core strengthening
LINKS & ABOUT CAMILLE
Find Camille Moses-Allen online at:
http://www.camillemosesallen.com/
http://www.facebook.com/CamilleYoga
http://instagram.com/camiekarma
Since 2006, Camille Moses-Allen has been one of Baltimore's top yoga teachers. Camille is a senior YogaWorks teacher and teacher trainer, yet she is an eternal student of yoga having taken 5 teacher trainings at both the 200 and 300 level herself. Camille is a certified YogaWorks teacher and trainer, OM Yoga teacher, and restorative yoga teacher.
Having taught thousands of students in Maryland, Camille conveys a powerfully energetic approach to the vinyasa side of yoga with a strong anatomical focus. She wants you to not only learn how to get on the mat and in the next pose, but how to do the pose with muscular strength, stability, and mental clarity.
Camille challenges her students to go beyond their comfort zones and to break habitual patterns on and off of the yoga mat. As her yoga teacher Cyndi Lee says: “Sometimes hard work is required." Her love of yoga stems from her days of dance and gymnastics and taking yoga classes with her mom.
TRANSCRIPT
Note: Please excuse any errors in the transcription.
Monica Phillips (00:41):
Welcome to Yoga Philosophy for Everyday Living. I'm so excited to have you here for an episode on Asana. I think it's what everyone thinks of when they think of yoga and we're going to break that down a little bit. To help all of you is the amazing Camille Moses-Allen. Welcome.
Camille Moses-Allen (00:57):
Thanks for having me.
Monica Phillips (00:58):
You led this incredible backbend workshop for us in the YogaWorks teacher training, and it was just so awesome to have you with us. A little bit about you - since 2006, Camille has been one of Baltimore's top yoga teachers. She's a senior YogaWorks teacher and teacher trainer which is how I got the privilege to know her and experience her yoga. She's an eternal student of yoga. You've taken five teacher trainings at the 200 and 300 hour level yourself. She's a certified YogaWorks teacher, Om Yoga teacher and restorative - becoming quickly my ultimate favorite kind of yoga so we'll talk about that. Camille has taught thousands of students in Maryland and is really energetic and has this really great energetic approach to the Vinyasa side of yoga and a deep connection to the anatomical focus as well. You have so many incredible accolades and it's all on the links below. Check out her website, the incredible pictures, the classes. You'll tell us exactly where to find you. Tell us about your first, how do you teach yoga and how did you come to yoga?
Camille Moses-Allen (02:01):
I guess the kind of tight version of that is I used to dance growing up with my twin sister and my mom, actually her master's and bachelor's are in dance history, even though she's a librarian. So we used to dance growing up and that's in addition to also playing sports and playing music and being in plays and all of those activities.
Camille Moses-Allen (02:23):
I also really liked gymnastics, but my mom didn't really like that I liked that. It's very physical and there's a lot of injuries that can sometimes happen. And truthfully, I think in hindsight it probably saved my body a little bit, but I liked flexibility aspects. So fast forward after I went to college, my mom and I would take classes together actually, and the classes, some of the ones that we went to together were, one was led by one of her former dance friends, so there was this kind of physical movement connection. There was interesting music playing, but we were moving and breathing and. There kind of is a dancy element to some of the transitions of the poses. And then the other class we would take was actually led by my high school biology teacher's daughter. It felt familiar. There was some sort of connection there, but I would go to these classes with my mom and I really liked it.
Camille Moses-Allen (03:16):
And I was also very flexible and young when that was - younger - when that was happening. And I basically kept with it and never really looked back. My practice has changed, which I know we'll talk about, but got into it that way. And I was working at T. Rowe Price at the time in corporate America, but I was 24 and I found out about a place that had a yoga teacher training and I ended up taking their training. And I guess something like six months after that was over, I decided to teach full-time and basically never looked back. That's the short version. A lot's happened in between that.
Monica Phillips (03:55):
You talked about the dance part of yoga and in teacher training, part of what I do is observe classes. It's kind of cool on zoom, you can have all the pictures, all the little squares. And when people say circle their arms from Warrior 2 back to downward facing dog, there's just this beautiful elegant flow that goes on and you can watch the coordination and you know, maybe some people aren't quite in sync, but overall this flow and then you'll see some of them will follow. I do love that part of yoga are graceful moments and then intense moments as well.
Camille Moses-Allen (04:26):
It's interesting you bring that up because I think a lot of people think that that's missing that it's online, but I don't think so. I can remember what that looked like to me as a teacher being in the corner of the room or being in the front of the room and seeing that. And I think that's still there. That tone is set by you. The teacher and the student who's willing to show up into this kind of, well it's not unfamiliar now, but what was unfamiliar territory a year ago.
Monica Phillips (04:52):
Let's talk about that. The role of the student and showing up, because certainly when I observe, I can feel the breath in the room. It also means it's not just the teacher, it's the student showing up on the mat and being willing to let go of what they think they're supposed to be. And actually showing up into this Asana practice.
Camille Moses-Allen (05:13):
There are two sides of that because I do think there are some people who really still crave this ideal scenario, which is without your partner, without your kids, without your pet crawling on you, without - I'm doing yoga on a carpeted floor - without all of that stuff. To me, that's not really what it's about, even though, yeah, we are also moving our bodies and we're sweating and we're trying to figure out something that might be physically challenging. But I also think the online has presented an opportunity for people who weren't able to go to class before, for whatever reason, because of the time, day or the parking, they were at work or whatever. That's brought me at least a whole other host of students, including across the country that I would have never met before. Still feeling happy. Touching into that, I think is just as important part of the practice as is everything else.
Monica Phillips (06:06):
I've been a single mom since my son was two years old. So online yoga has always been part of my practice and early it was YogaGlo, and now YogaWorks has all of the classes, it's great for me. I actually really love that there are students who have their kids literally crawling on their backs. The dogs all come out. The cats, my cats, I don't know what it is, I pull my yoga mat out and they're like, what are we doing today? Let's play!
Camille Moses-Allen (06:31):
The relationship piece. For you, that's your relationship in your mind for those external things. Can you still practice yoga while that's happening? And the answer is yes. But does that take discipline, practice, and concentration? Yes, but I also think it provides this other relationship between me as the teacher, that's seeing a window into what your real life actually is, not just this 90-minute or 60-minute square of "Oh, I see you" and all of that, I think it's about including all of those things. It makes them more interesting.
Monica Phillips (07:02):
Let's talk about what is Asana, because Asana is the third limb of Patanjali's eight-fold path to yoga and in the yoga sutras, it really means just to create a comfortable seat, ultimately in preparation for meditation. And so it's become so much more than that, especially with the hot yoga and the 2/3 level yoga flow sequences. This is maybe not at all about creating a comfortable seat. And there's something so important about this so tell us what that is.
Camille Moses-Allen (07:32):
I have a lot of thoughts about that as someone who's taught all of those things, but, comfortable seat can also mean how can I find my - I've studied a lot with the teacher Cindy Lee, and she would say, how can I find strength, stability, and clarity throughout this thing that's not necessarily strong. We first start practicing, we're figuring out how do my hands go on the mat? How do my feet go? I'm practicing on carpet so every day am I going to have my balance or maybe not? And that comfortable seat, I think is just another piece of imagery I guess, if you will, of how am I going to be stable and steady in my mind when my body is not, which is just another analogy for how life goes. It's not just, we've all felt that in the last year, plus some - it's not this straight linear line or path, but we get familiar with that, how we are, how our habits are when we're back there on our yoga mat, trying to figure out a tricky pose.
Camille Moses-Allen (08:32):
So I think there's that piece, but the Asana is a physical practice where you are sweating, you are stretching and building strength, stability in your body in different ways. And that could be to just be able to bend down with more ease or maybe it's to find a handstand. I think being curious about all those things over and over is just part of that. I guess my other thought is that a lot of people do yoga and I feel like a lot more people have it available to them now that it's online. And I know in my classes, I see a lot of older people. And so for me, because I care about them being well and healthy and having an experience, I also want them to be safe. So I do think yes, anatomy and knowing the inner workings of the pose and how that shows up in different people and different ages and abilities I think is super important. So I do think learning some kinesthetic information about the body is another part of the Asana, the physical practice of yoga for now, at least I think that's a big part.
Monica Phillips (09:37):
I love what you said about creating stability, amidst all the chaos. It's an incredible gift to be able to do that. And it does take practice. So you led a backbend workshop for us, for the teacher training. Someone who isn't an experience practitioner could look at it and say like, why do we do all these fancy poses? What's the point of putting our foot behind our head? Or why did we do ardachanrasana chapasana or all of the really fancy, intense balancing poses. Eka Pada Kundinyasana II. There are so many really cool poses that look incredible. Tell us about the benefits of backbends and then some of the other poses. Why do we do all of these complex postures?
Camille Moses-Allen (10:17):
Again, lots of thoughts about all of that. So hopefully I can remember each part of the question. That many in general to me is countering what we're doing right now, which is sitting in a chair. Everyone's been at home more than before. And even counters standing, running, biking, hiking, opening up the front of your body, whether you feel like you're stretching or not, but it's creating space in places that tend to go forward over time and shorten because of lifestyle, habit, gravity, age, injury, places like our hip flexors are getting shortened and tightened right now just from sitting in a chair. So back-bending physically is creating space and stretching that in addition to - yeah- stretching, bending, moving your spine, which we don't always do in other activities, aside from yoga, where we're doing things like twisting and going into spinal extension and flexion.
Camille Moses-Allen (11:16):
And I think it's also important. What I like about it is learning how to do it properly and safely in a way that's going to make your back feel good. It doesn't mean that might not feel hard, but a way that can make it feel like there's more space that you are successful if you will in the more challenging pose. To answer your question about like, why are we doing some of these harder ones? I guess I have a couple answers about that. One is that I think it's so fun. If it's not fun, let's find the class that you do think is fun, that is making you feel invigorated or relaxed or insert any other adjective there. I kind of like to look at the bigger picture of that sequence. That was a workshop for the advanced 300-hour YogaWorks teacher training. So even though every student in the training might not be advanced or even be an advanced teacher, that's going to teach all those poses so for you as a practitioner to figure out, maybe I can reach back and catch my foot today.
Camille Moses-Allen (12:12):
I think a lot of those poses are gradually building up to something that's more challenging, that's maybe a riskier pose. Maybe you're not going to do today, but that you're learning the different parts and pieces of said bigger pose. You may never do handstand, but what does it feel like to feel weight in your hands? So straighten your arms to spread your fingers apart. What does it feel like to lift one leg in the air, be really straight? Those are, to me, at least other components that go into why we're doing balancing on one leg and then lifting the other one up, and then you're looking over there and that's all on top of the other piece of finding stability to be able to see I'm trying this. And it doesn't matter if I'm really wiggly cause can I keep going from a place of confidence and, uh, enjoyment, even if it's a little bit messy around the edges.
Monica Phillips (13:03):
Yeah. As you know, Tiffany Russo's my mentor teacher and I love her. Like you, I started in gymnastics as a young kid back walkovers. Yeah, four years ago I was doing it all and I was doing all of the sweaty, hot, challenging flow classes. And I love it. And sometimes I still love it and I love Tiffany's class and I love restorative yoga. I watched this arc and I think some of it is this power of letting go of being attached to needing to do all the fancy poses and embracing the relaxing. And I also know backbends open up the chest. They counter these poses, especially on our phones. Everything is forward and in. So opening with twists, it really helps in the digestive system. And then with locus pose, lying on your tummy helps to put weight on different organs, create circulation in the body in different ways.
Camille Moses-Allen (13:53):
I would say the other thing I think I was, I mean, I can't wait for this to happen, but I just thought about, in the winter time. Well, and you're in California, so maybe it's not as cold as it is on the East coast, but we were like this a lot where we're holding on for warmth. And then I go to Lewis, Delaware every year on the Eastern shore I've gone there my entire life. And I can still feel the feeling of right before you get into the ocean and it's 90 degrees outside in August and the sun is shining right on you. And there's a different way that we carry ourselves when we're feeling warm. When we're feeling energized, front body opened upright position that is different than what we're doing, you know, in other months of the year. And I think this is important to have the slower or more still inward peace. We have to have both of those.
Monica Phillips (14:44):
I also think of ayurveda - how we have these different seasons, different needs for different foods, warming or cooling.
Camille Moses-Allen (14:52):
I used to teach hot yoga too. And for me, it got to be too much after a certain point. So I was teaching it and doing it all the time. And we still need that other piece, that slower, cooler to stoke that other fire, if you will, we're not just getting really hot and crispy around the edges, but we're also having this more down-regulating piece that's giving us rest and rejuvenation so that we can do both.
Monica Phillips (15:19):
Talk to us about the different kinds of Asana you teach - the difference between Vinyasa flow and restorative.
Camille Moses-Allen (15:25):
On the YogaWorks schedule I teach two YogaWorks Level 2 classes and two Level 2/3 classes. And those are rooted in Vinyasa flow, which a lot of times people think Vinyasa means linking breath with movement or chaturanga/ up dog/ down dog. But it really means to place in a special way. That can be anything and being conscious and aware of how I do that. So I would say that in my YogaWorks classes, just for people who aren't familiar with the YogaWorks method is, it is to me rooted in a place of alignment and anatomy so that you can keep your body safe. And I think that that word you is individuals. So we use a lot of props and make it more accessible for each student. And that's based on ranges of ability, short arms, long arms, tall, any type of injuries.
Camille Moses-Allen (16:18):
Those classes build to a, I don't even want to just say peak pose because I don't think it's just around that. I think it's a peak section of poses that tend to be more challenging. And so that you're warmed up that your body is familiar and prepared with the actions and positions that you're going to make in this harder section. And I would say it's a mix of stability and strength. And I wouldn't say you're moving fast, but in my classes, we're not holding all the poses forever except for maybe some core strengthening ones, and then you have time to work on these more challenging poses. The other poses that I teach with my mentor group and the 300-hour, some restorative poses along with pranayama and meditation. And I do teach pranayama in my classes as well. And restorative yoga, if you don't know what that is or still getting your feet wet with that, I think now is like a perfect time for everyone to be getting more familiar with restorative yoga because you're at home and have many household props available to you.
Camille Moses-Allen (17:19):
True restorative yoga is when you're being supported or held up by the props so that you're actually not feeling like your body is opening, opening, opening, or stretching, stretching, stretching. And it is a more down-regulated but slower practice where you're most of the time, closer to the ground. You're holding it for a few minutes to really get the benefits of, well, I could be opening my chest, but I'm supported by pillows or a bolster. Maybe I have an eye pillow over my eyes. I do think it's really good before bed to do some of these, even like one or two in the middle of the day, before you go back to work from your lunch break, it's giving you some time to decompress and rest, which we don't - that's another hard part of life during the pandemic - people aren't used to having a rest. We're not used to being still. So in restorative yoga, you are being still, that doesn't mean your mind is still, that's equally as challenging to work with. And just recognizing this feels hard and there's nothing to necessarily do about that, but still tapping into that.
Monica Phillips (18:24):
I've read and confirmed with so many people that their days are getting expanded by two and a half hours.
Camille Moses-Allen (18:30):
We're working more, even though we're working at home. Yeah.
Monica Phillips (18:33):
Even I was on a call at 7:00 AM this morning that I normally wouldn't have done if I had to commute anywhere, it wouldn't have been possible. I have done it in the past, but it wouldn't have been a regular thing. I just say yes to more things. So there is more of an ease and flow. I appreciate it. I've been working, running my business at home for seven years. So it's not new to me and because we're not going out and seeing people in person there's more need for that. And we get exhausted being online and just talking about restorative makes me feel all warm and cozy. I love restorative yoga. It is so important.
Camille Moses-Allen (19:02):
I feel like you're going to ask me about this, but I think it's important to have different pieces of this yoga pie, because I don't think yoga is just about doing the sweaty hard stuff. I think we should do sweaty hard things and get your heart rate going. And, but I also think what other parts of yoga can we include - restorative or breath, work and meditation. And then also having a life and hobby outside of all of this - going hiking, or maybe taking up knitting, reading, whatever it is so that we can still be supple, you know, and able to kind of go with things as they go holding on too tightly to the one thing that makes us feel a certain way all the time.
Monica Phillips (19:41):
I think you've been talking to Jeanne Heileman. You know she talks about the blueberry pie.
Camille Moses-Allen (19:44):
(laughter) I love Jeanne.
Monica Phillips (19:46):
In vinyasa flow, if you push your body all the time you're not going to get the value that you need from it.
Camille Moses-Allen (19:54):
My third 300-hour teacher training, I'm taking it for the second time with Cindy Lee. And I would say if anything is really turning the wheels of my mind the most it's the (1) restorative yoga piece, but (2) it's the meditation and the philosophy, which is, and she's Buddhist. And I've been studying that for close to 10 years now. And it's all about how our mind reacts. And we can't, we can't have time to stop and pause and respond if we don't make a space for that or create the, as she would say, like the causes and conditions for that, which are meditation. It is restorative. When we have to sit and kind of deal with ourselves.
Monica Phillips (20:35):
I love that you said that Vinyasa is to do things in a certain way step by step. In the example I use that I got from my 200-hour with Mynx Inatsugu is, if you put your shoes on and then your socks, it's a very different result than probably what most of us intend. I think there's also thinking about that and expanding it out to all of the different Asana practices. There is also an order like restorative before bed. We probably wouldn't want to do a level 2/3 Vinyasa flow class, and then go to sleep. Thinking about the time of day and then what serves your body?
Camille Moses-Allen (21:07):
The pieces of the said blueberry pie people have to kind of figure out when they're new, because when I've been in teacher training and we learned the restorative part, it was really hard for me to wake up feeling like I was alert and keep going throughout the day. But a big part of what I realized about that was because I was always operating way up a pie versus down low. So figuring out, okay, what are the benefits of this upbeat energizing thing versus the slower, more calming and cooling thing, and where do those fit best for me? Cause I think some of those results, if you will, are different for everyone, but I think there's a lot of benefit to doing restorative yoga before bed and one or two things in the middle of the day, right after they're having a lunch break or taking a later break after lunch to down-regulate from the workday - workday stress.
Monica Phillips (22:01):
I've become a huge fan of yoga nidra. And it's incredibly calming. I even love it in the early afternoon.
Camille Moses-Allen (22:08):
Yeah. I still think about this class I used to teach at a gym on the lunch break. There were a ton of people that would come and it was this Vinyasa flow. And I would always think this is just making them ramp up higher to go back to work. But really we should be bringing that down. Being able to add that in, I think is a good blend. And just like seeing what happens afterwards.
Monica Phillips (22:32):
How do we create steadiness in the mind through an Asana practice?
Camille Moses-Allen (22:39):
That is a great question. There's a lot of things that people can do. It happens on an individual basis. But for me, finding a teacher that I really loved and wanted to have what they were having and following them around and then listening to those teachings when referring to those teachings is really what helped me in the asana practice. But also remembering you can always start over and having that. A lot of people use this phrase, having a beginner's mind. I even heard someone saying that about, I think they were talking about Tom Brady after all this time. I've never been a huge fan of him, but, but I think that it is incredible. Keep doing what you've been doing over and over again from a place of clarity, amongst all kinds of life changes has to come from that. It has to come from stepping into this again and again and again, and seeing it with fresh eyes so that you're still interested in what you're doing.
Monica Phillips (23:35):
I'm not a huge football fan though I always cheer for the 49ers. They will always be my team since my childhood, Joe Montana days, but I appreciate watching how they play. And I appreciated it more this year, maybe because I am in the middle of yoga teacher training and hearing how the Buccaneers did, how they threw away everything they knew and started over.
Camille Moses-Allen (23:54):
Again I'm not the biggest Tom Brady fan, but I did see something about him on, I think it was on CBS Sunday morning, but they talked about that, about his training, that he's never looking down, even though there are people coming at him from the side, he's looking at where he's going. And I think to me, that's about being awake and alert and aware. And that's from practice like that is from years of practice. So the meditation that I practice, which is a Tibetan Buddhist style of meditation, your eyes are open. That's not to have something distract you purposefully, but it's to actually include what's happening in your surroundings so that you have close attention to what you're looking at, whether it's the floor or the wall, but you have an expanded awareness. And if that's not what Tom Brady is doing, when he's doing his job, I'm not sure what is. And again, that doesn't happen right away. You know that you're never distracted that he's never knocked down or sacked or whatever, but maybe after practicing, there is a little bit more strength there, Oh, he's not looking over there. I'm not looking down there. There's a noise outside and I don't have to look, but that's just from doing the actual practices and seeing what happens without having it be task or goal oriented.
Monica Phillips (25:12):
I love that on so many levels, and I think, too, for everyday living because that's what this podcast is about. This yoga, this sense that we're not on a linear path, right? It's not like, Oh, we just keep going up. If we go up and then we come back down and then we need something different and we sit there for a while and then we try something new. Maybe we go back before going forward again. And so we're gaining this knowledge, we're gaining all this wisdom and then we're figuring out what else do we need? What will serve us today? Maybe it's not what served us yesterday, right? Maybe it's not, what's going to serve us tomorrow. What will serve us today? And like, Tiffany Russo always says - meeting your body where you are right now.
Camille Moses-Allen (25:44):
Which is different than where you were yesterday.
Monica Phillips (25:48):
You talked about meditation because Asana is the third of eight limbs. Ultimately allowing us to connect to our breath, allowing us to connect to our wisdom, kind of taking away the layers to go deeper in the koshas and connect to samadhi. Tell me what that's like for you and how people listening can be more mindful of this process of breath and mindfulness in a fast yoga class.
Camille Moses-Allen (26:15):
I think it comes down to what I was just saying about, how you can always start over, which means paying attention to each time you're going into, I don't know, Chaturanga Dandasana or each downward facing dog, that you're seeing that with fresh eyes, when you realize that you're getting really cozy and comfy, that we can pause and take a breath and it's new again. Remembering consciously to breathe even if a teacher isn't saying anything about that is for the practitioner, Oh, I'm here. This is what I'm doing. It's another opportunity to come back and start again. I always think about, I watched "Lost" the series. Once it was over, I binge-watched all of it so that I wasn't hanging on for however long it was in between the seasons and stuff online, but I remember one episode, this was in the beginning and Evangeline Lily was really freaked out, I guess, about the smoke monster or something like that.
Camille Moses-Allen (27:13):
And she's inside of this hollowed out tree or something and Jack is okay, count to five. And I just remember it, I think about that sometimes because she was really freaked out. They don't know what's going on or in the middle of the well, Hawaii, I guess, but jungle, mountainous area. Oh, she has to consciously stop and count to five and take a couple breaths, take a deep breath. And then moving ahead, I think (1) remembering to breathe, treating each breath as a new opportunity to start over and remembering that this is not linear or task oriented or goal oriented, but the breath is the one thing that is happening right now in each moment. So being able to enjoy and tap into each moment by paying attention to that, the one thing that's happening in each moment.
Monica Phillips (27:57):
I read this. I really like it so I'll read it here. "In Asana not only do we feel more flexible physically, but the flexibility expresses itself through an increased ability to be flexible when challenging circumstances arise in our daily lives." As a coach, I ask my clients to notice where they feel certain emotions. And I also ask them to focus on their bodies in order to move away from the chatter in their minds. And this is ultimately what it is about to me. I've experienced yoga where I'm not sure I can do something or where I feel like I'm being pushed a little, it's a little uncomfortable. And then all of a sudden it's not. And it's something really powerful to notice that flexibility comes not from the body, but from the mind. I think in business and in life, we tell ourselves we can't do something. And ultimately when we can do it, it's because we change our mindset. How have you noticed this in yoga?
Camille Moses-Allen (28:45):
I mean, we change our mind about things all the time, whether it's I want this to eat, or I don't want this to eat, or I'm not going to wear this sweater or whatever, but I also think having a teacher is important is where some of that comes from having a teacher that sets you up for success to maybe try this hard pose. And I mean that in a way that's really about the teaching to the student, not for me as the teacher being up there on the teacher pedestal, but really looking at the students and seeing, okay, how can I, how can I help them? How can I be more helpful? And that also means creating the space that this might not happen and that's not a big deal. And being able to support that without necessarily saying anything. And for me, that's just not taking it all that seriously.
Camille Moses-Allen (29:35):
The physical part is not all that serious. I really believe in smart teaching. I don't like to use the words cues very often or even instruction because it's a teaching. I think that's coming from a teacher, not just the person who's got it memorized because really you have to support each individual person. That's complex. So I like to think about that a lot, but also remembering that there's a bigger picture and that the poses is fleeting, but it's really, I think part of the teaching of this is going to end. And then how can I keep going in a way that's no big deal, but also not forgetting about that. And maybe that means you take something away from that, but you're also not still worrying about that five hours later after it's, after it's over.
Monica Phillips (30:21):
I'm so glad you said that. We make mistakes and then we move on, right? And if we harbor those mistakes, then we're taking it into the next experience instead of letting it go.
Camille Moses-Allen (30:29):
So we all do that. We know what we want. We cling to that. We know what we don't want, we avoid that. Or the third one I think is the ignorance one where we just don't really know. And then we're kind of attached to one of those. And that, that changes how we show up.
Monica Phillips (30:46):
Right? And difficulty in life comes from when we have expectations that don't match our current existence. This is not good. This is not good. Instead of what can I do to change what's happening here. I asked you to come and talk about Asana because in the backbend workshop, there was so much play in how you taught and safety. This space where we're doing backbends, it's a really big pose and can be so many different things. So creating safety and having all the different variations and allowing play, I think it's so important. You ask a kid what's their favorite topic. You know what they talk about every single day, at least for the kids I know. There are probably some exceptions, but 97% of the time, I would say it's recess. They're talking about playing with kids. They're talking about interacting with kids. They're talking about connecting. Do we forget to do that somewhere along the way?
Camille Moses-Allen (31:36):
Yeah, because I think there can also be this I'm talking about on your mat. There's a hardening that happens when we're just concentrating, concentrating, concentrating, but really that means you're forgetting about what else is happening. The world is still turning and we do that in life. I think it's the same thing. And then ultimately we cause our own, you used the word stress or suffering or strain because we're just focused on that one other thing that's not necessarily happening. So we're either living in the future or hanging out in past and avoiding what's happening right here. I have a very upbeat personality. I'd say most of the time, because I do think there's a time to be serious. I think the reason that I can teach in that way is only because I've done it a lot, which means a lot of practice and studying not just, Oh, I did one training and we called it a day.
Camille Moses-Allen (32:28):
Now I've been teaching really up until a few years ago, every day of the week for years. And I've been teaching yoga for 14 years. So I think for those newer teachers out there, I think that's part of it. You have to study and practice. And when it gets boring, you study and practice some more. And even when you're excited you study and practice some more, which is what my teacher, Cindy Lee would say. And I think I don't even want to use the word persona, but I feel like my persona is like that because that's just the way that I believe is works best for me. That there's a time to be serious, but at times also be nice to yourself. So, and we can't really be nice to other people if we're not nice for ourselves,
Monica Phillips (33:08):
We have to love ourselves to show up for others.
Camille Moses-Allen (33:11):
I have a rare joint disease. So I've had a lot of knee surgery and it's really scary. Stuff happens and that can be really scary. You're independent, everyone feels scared about something, but also recognizing that that's okay. I still have a lot of things that like made me really happy. And I remember I just told this to my significant other. I remember the last time I had knee surgery, maybe like 10 days after we went to Philadelphia, we went to a concert. We saw Snow Patrol and I had bought these tickets for him as a Christmas gift. So it was spring time. Also the day I got my stitches out, I also had an emergency root canal. So a lot was happening and I was really nervous about going to this concert. We stayed in my favorite hotel and part of me was consumed by fear that I was already miserable.
Camille Moses-Allen (33:58):
Even though in hindsight, I was like, that was totally fine. But I remember at one point in the concert, I looked over and he looked so happy. The happiest, I actually think I've ever seen him. And then I just had this moment of really being there and present. My life was amazing even though this crazy, weird, bad stuff has happened. We can't see that without recognizing that we have both, you know, you're going to be happy when you're sad. You're going to be sad when you're really happy and being able to live into that, which is going to happen again and again, but being able to recognize it is the practice.
Monica Phillips (34:34):
So important, Camille. I think most people miss out on life because they're not present.
Camille Moses-Allen (34:40):
It can be an overwhelming feeling to be, Oh no, I have to have knee surgery or, Oh no, I have a scary disease or, Oh no, this bad thing happened because that's hard. But I also think that's why there are tools like yoga, like meditation and therapy, all of those things, shouldn't be diminished. That's what can make us really live into our life fully. And in a vibrant way. I wouldn't say that I'm totally carefree, but I feel like I can feel really happy about everything. And it's also from feeling the bad feelings, but not, not letting any one of those consume what I'm doing or who I am.
Monica Phillips (35:19):
I think about this a lot, this idea of needing the dark in order to know what the light is and being able to experience it. And I think about this in Asana when I am struggling with something, I think, Oh, remember earlier today I did that pose and it was kind of hard and I just experienced it. And I notice what I can do in that moment.
Camille Moses-Allen (35:38):
As a teacher and a yoga teacher trainer that's part of my job. It is part of my job to get you to push a little bit, get you to work a little bit. But that also means if you had a wrist surgery a year ago, am I going to make you do handstand? No. If you want to work on handstand, let's do it. We're working with, I think that's the middle piece people don't they don't realize it's not all or nothing. A lot of times it's something in the middle.
Monica Phillips (36:06):
That's the meeting you where you are in that moment piece. So important, big question. What is your favorite post? Do you have a favorite pose?
Camille Moses-Allen (36:12):
I like the inversions. I like Pincha Mayurasana as a forearm balance and handstand, Adho Mukha Vrksasana. But I also like backbends. A couple, I can't do any more because it can't bend my right knee as much, but I like all the deep ones. I guess I like them partly because I could always do it. But the other part is from having a lot of surgery from now and teaching online at a desk, also I'm closer to 40 than 30. It feels different. But I feel as like I'm helping my body when I'm doing those poses, which also includes rolling on a foam roller or draping over blocks, not just going up because we can, but we talked about in the workshop that I taught, like there was a progression of, we're laying on our stomach, even though the one bigger one we're going to do is not on your stomach. And we're going to balance on one leg and all of that stuff. That's building up to that. But I think to me it still feels good. The poses should feel like that. It doesn't mean they're not going to feel hard to get there, but it should feel, I think, invigorating or relaxing or rejuvenating and special to you, when you can only feel that if you slow down for a second.
Monica Phillips (37:23):
I love my props and I'm so glad that you talked about this. I remember the first time I did Urdhva Dhanurasana with a strap and I was, Oh my gosh. That was amazing. And you did it also with the blocks at an angle to the wall. And again, I was Whoa, that was such a different pose for me. I loved it. Tell me about props.
Camille Moses-Allen (37:41):
There's kind of a misrepresentation of what props and yoga are. I do think that's changing. My experience previously was in a heated class. You're getting really sweaty. It's hard to use the props. Everyone's sweating all over the props and now there's been a pandemic. No, you're not going to share props. So there's all of that. And I would always say, get your own props is good. And you can go to Target or Marshall's or something, but props can really make the pose accessible for you. People also don't realize that there are certain anatomical differences in the bony structure of the body, which could be shorter arms to a really long torso. It could be that. It could be that your wrist doesn't bend that much. It could be that you have bunyuns. I think things like that can make us - And that's in addition to if you had an injury 20 years ago, and now you have scar tissue, that's making a difference, like a physical difference that we can't necessarily change.
Camille Moses-Allen (38:37):
So then people used to think props are there to be a crutch because you can't can't do the pose. But really I think we forget that a lot of the poses were designed for a certain type of practitioner in a different time were we're not sitting at home on the computer where there was no Netflix, we weren't running and biking and all of that stuff. So the props are really making it accessible so that you can find your range of motion, that you can find stability in the pose. I don't think - now this is something I have to remind newer teachers all the time - the pose can help encourage a certain alignment position, but they don't make it stay there. You still have to do the muscular action in addition to setting it up a certain way. So yeah, I think props can really also take the stress out of a pose for certain people.
Camille Moses-Allen (39:31):
I teach forearm balance with a roll under your elbow sometimes because if you have a shorter upper arm bone, your head is closer to the floor. That wasn't something I learned in my first teacher training 14 and a half years ago. So I think that this whole piece of it has evolved, learning how to add and use them in a way that's useful, not just to use them, but in a way that's useful and helpful. And I think it's like another thing that keeps the students engaged. Right now, I'm teaching online. And there are plenty of people who have already taken teacher training, but not by me. That was a while ago when I'd make them do some of these things with props. She's like, Oh, it's such another eye-opener and that's what keeps the student coming back and interested. Oh, we're not just doing the same thing all the time. And ultimately that makes me happy for her experience. If I think about what it means to be a teacher, that means to be helpful. I think being able to have a lot of tools in the toolbox and be able to get whether you're just coming to yoga for stretching or not. I don't even think that matters, but having a variety of skills as a teacher, I think is just, what's going to support your students and encourage them and keep them coming back. After years and years and years.
Monica Phillips (40:44):
I was on a call earlier today and we were talking about how it's difficult for some people to say they don't know something. It causes a lot of challenges in communication, especially now we're online, we're on the phone. We don't have that same interpersonal interaction. And it's hard to see, is someone understanding this. And we talked about how to create space and give people permission to say, Oh, I don't really know that, or I'm not exactly sure what you're looking for. And ultimately it's a way to say, okay, we're building a team. It's going to be awesome. I want all of you to succeed. What do we need? We need to have permission to say, I don't know how to do that. Let me figure it out. Let me learn. And I feel like that's a lot of what you're saying with props. It's hey, I know my hand, my arms aren't longer than my legs. I can't reach the floor. I'll pull my hamstring. Let me acknowledge, let me build some self-awareness and acknowledge that.
Camille Moses-Allen (41:34):
I think it's hard for everyone because we want to control what's going on. But at the same time, I remember seeing someone be, and she was 20 - she was in teacher training and she was so afraid of going upside down even though I had set her up perfectly, she was having this very physical response and I was like, it's totally okay. And we just left it there. And that was over a year ago so maybe she's gone into handstand since then. But I think that means we all have to be okay with setting a space, to be in this place of not knowing, which can only come when you don't do the same thing all the time. I think it's hard for newer teachers to really understand why, what we're looking at in someone. And then also why this would maybe be helpful. The page I'd take from my book is make everyone do it. So then they can figure out maybe this is helpful. Maybe I don't know. And that means repeating it that way for years.
Monica Phillips (42:31):
I was talking to a friend who said she and her friend were noticing how everyone they know over a certain age, who does yoga has a very long frame. Do you find that to be typically true of people who do yoga a lot.
Camille Moses-Allen (42:43):
I think it lengthens a lot of the muscles. And when I used to lead teacher training in person, I never let anyone sit against the wall and people would hate that, but you don't get stronger by leaning against it. That's how you get better posture of doing the things that support that. I think in general, people just have more body awareness if they do a lot of yoga. They're just paying attention to that. And also I try to explain it at the very most basic ways that your internal organs are stacked a certain way. So when you're slumping over, it is harder to breathe. And at base level, when people think about yoga, they think about breathing. Well, when you're sitting up or standing up straight, it's easier to take a deeper breath in and be conscious about your breath.
Monica Phillips (43:28):
Awareness is a key word for me and something all of us can practice.
Camille Moses-Allen (43:33):
Yeah. And that just comes from doing it, showing up and doing it. And that might be on your own at home. Just unrolling your mat and taking care of your props of your body, mindfully, doing things.
Monica Phillips (43:46):
Is there a right amount of Asana practice?
Camille Moses-Allen (43:49):
I don't really like to dole out those kinds of things, but I do think if you never do, let's go with handstand. If you never do handstand, you can't expect to it all of a sudden, there's a time to practice that if that's what you want to work on. But I do think there's too much of a good thing. Sometimes when you're feeling worn out and broken down and your body needs a rest. But I do think something comes from having a regular practice, but regular might mean two times a week. That might mean three times a week. I don't think it means necessarily seven days a week. And I say that so that we don't get too attached to some outcome. I'm saying that differently of exercise in general, because I also think that can mean your breath work or breath attention or breath awareness exercises, or maybe that includes meditation.
Camille Moses-Allen (44:38):
Maybe that just means a couple of restorative poses.
Monica Phillips (44:41):
What I hear is we are the sum of our habits. I like this philosophy and I think that's so true. You can't just show up and do handstand or some people can do it, but ultimately we become what we practice.
Camille Moses-Allen (44:51):
And I think they only can do it because they've done it for so long. Someone who was a cheerleader forever. When I come into teacher training and I'm like, well, there's a time to push you a little bit and a time to not do that. You've got to show up to figure it out.
Monica Phillips (45:05):
What a pleasure.
Camille Moses-Allen (45:06):
Thanks for having me, Monica.